Matthew Chapter 7
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
***Updated 7/1/08***
This audio clip was taken from a sermon dealing with the question “can you lose your salvation?” It can be downloaded or listened to at the link below.
Christian Theology 
I am a Sponsor for a 12 Step recovery Group. I teach that recovery only comes from the teachings of God. I like your teachings on what is means to be a Christian. My Church, also, teaches that to be saved all one must do is respond to John 3:16. I agree that salvation does not come automatically. Only when you learn and act on knowing God’s will as to what He requires. I believe that is why there are so many defeated Christians in the world. Can you direct me to where I can find more information that I can share with men who don’t know what it means to surrender to Jesus for salvation.
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Wrong sir,
It is written “to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord”. Where is Jesus? At the right hand of the Father, gone to prepare a place to receive the bride. Jesus is in Paradise, with the thief on the other cross.
This is same place where the saints who were murdered for their faith, ask Jesus “And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, before you judge and avenge the shedding of our blood on the killers that dwell on the earth?
It is written “And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and HELL delivered up the dead which were in them” When was this? This was just moments before the White Throne Judgment.
Now, dear Phil, let us understand that the “lake of fire” is where Jesus will cast Hell, Death, Satan, and all mankind who’s names were not written in the Lamb’s Book of Life. Forever!
If we said “No one is in the “New Heavens & New Earth” or the “Lake of Fire” yet because Jesus has not yet come again to judge the living & the dead, that would be correct.
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Menagerie… In the book of John, chapter 10 verse 27: He say “I know them” and He qualifies this statement with the expression: “My sheep hear My Voice” and then finishes the sentence with “They follow me.” If the Holy Spirit, is not indwelling you, and conveying the Voice of Yeshua aka Jesus Christ, He does not KNOW you. If you are not hearing or not obedient to His Voice, again, He does not KNOW you. If you do not follow Him, He does not KNOW you. You will be heartbroken on the day of Judgment.
He will tell you “depart from me”, you outlaw who practiced rebellion against the will of the My Father. Do not resist the Holy Spirit, Do not Quench the Holy Spirit. Walk in the Spirit, Yield your will into the Father’s Hands.
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Help me in anyway you can to help me pray because i av accepted JESUS as my lord and savíor please thank
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i believe this scripture Matthew 7:23 is very controversial.According to the Bible
ALL people are sinners accept Yeshua who is God incarnate and therefore can’t sin. Therefore ALL Christians are doer’s of iniquity.Romans 3:23.So this statement begs the question what is a Christian? A Christian is a person who is filled with the Holy Spirit and has started a personal relationship with Yeshua.
Sadly many people go to church and that’s a start ,but unfortunately they have no
personal relationship with the Lord God Yeshua, therefore He will say to them,
“Depart from me… I never KNEW you. Blessings Andrew
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You’d a few good points right here. We done a research on the topic and also got the majority of peoples may trust your site.
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Esteemed Nathaniel, The theme that God cannot change the fact that only those who follow Jesus’ example to the end will be saved. 2 Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition… The 70 departed in John 6. Jesus within the lifetime of John spoke about the Ephesians falling away, Rev 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent. These words must be taken into account as we preach Paul’s letter to them. To Sardis he says clearly Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. Jesus blots out names out of the book of life. Again John speaks of many who deny these texts, who take them out of their message denying that men shall fall away saying: Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. Mat 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
Can we not see why men study theology and lose their souls?
They teach another gospel that does not emphasize that it is indespensible the taking up of our cross and following Jesus.
EVERLASTING GOSPEL blip.tv/file/1815520
Wayne Searfoss
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No one is in heaven or hell yet because Jesus has not yet come again to judge the living or the dead.
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i think clays response was very good:
“They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.
Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
2 Peter 2:20
20For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.”
also there is hebrews 2:1-4
“…give heed to the things we have heard, lest we drift away…for if…every transgression…received a just reward, how shall we escape, if we neglect so great a salvation? …God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles and gifts of the spirit.”
a concept to “falling away” does not necessarily violate the principles of predestination or salvation.
predestination could use a better explanation.
the elect will never fall away because god already knew that they would not. god is not a respecter of persons; thus he lets the elect come freely to him, they are merely the “elect” because god already know that they would choose to be faithful of their own accord.
salvation itself is not so clearly defined, either.
we assume it means permanently saved from gods wrath or from hellfire; whereas, in reality, you can be, possibly, saved one moment, and not the next. (you cannot crucify Christ again, so how can you be saved again after falling away?- implies that a falling away can lead to a loss of salvation) nowhere does it say that ONLY the elect will be saved, that is a calvinist assumption which is then combined with the notion that salvation is permanent- the elect are those who remain saved till the end, and God predestined them as the elect because he already knew they would be faithful till the end, because he predicted their actions, and these undying noble actions are to be the grounds of their election.
nowhere does it say that the salvation is permanent; it could be that it is saving us from gods wrath as long as we remain pure, or instead “saving” us from our own fleshly desires, from the curse of the law (romans 8:1-3- “…the law of the spirit in christ jesus has made me free form the law of sin and death…) or from satan’s grasp.
the verses from hebrews, im particular, seem to suggest that salvation is NOT a permanent state; thus, it is possible for one of the non-elect to be temporarily saved, and then, afterwards, fall away and lose their salvation.
i would say that salvation is not from hell or from gods wrath, it is salvation from the law, from judaism through the now covenant of Jesus’ blood. we are no longer judged by adherence to the law, we are now judged by our hearts and intentions, totally different rules apply here.
those cast away in the topic’s main parable were not judged according to the law, rather, by their relationship with god. they were not on trial for violating the tenants of judaism, for they were saved from the law,; however, in this new covenant of Jesus blood, you have to abide by the new rules and keep your heart and intentions pure, and a relationship with god will naturally follow. they were called workers of iniquity even though the performed miracles in jesus’ name, yet, the judgment call was not over the iniquity, but the lack of a relationship with god- from which the iniquity followed.
the main parable seems strikingly similar to the parable of the sheep and the goats in matthew 25:31-46…
remember, the sheep and goats were never asked if they had a salvation experience, they were judged based purely on charity and benevolence- for, if you truly have a good relationship with god and love him, you will do his will, which includes charity. some of the goats could have possibly been those who performed miracles in Jesus’ name, serving willingly in a role of prestige, while refusing to humble themselves through selfless charitable acts such as feeding the hungry, clothing the naked and visiting the imprisoned and bedridden.
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I think that it is important here to see the profession of those that were rejected by Christ. That all declared their works as the reason Jesus should know them. It is clear here that works do not justify.
Luke 9 – 14 :
9 To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everybody else, Jesus told this parable: 10″Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood up and prayed about himself: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’
13 “But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’
14 “I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”
It is faith alone in Christ alone which saves.
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God in His Providence is so much bigger than we can even imagine. The scriptures were given as the inerrant Word. The translations and interpretations put on the Word, by men, can do nothing to stop God’s purpose. Hebrews 11:6 says, “But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.” In a person’s diligence to seek Him, they will receive revelation, wisdom, and discernment directly from the Holy Spirit; despite the translation and interpretation errors of men.
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What’s are they? I doubt that we disagree. I am only focusing on one aspect of salvation…the one the humanists on the board are harping on.
The controversy is over whether one can be saved-now without certainly being saved-then. All I am getting at is that, of necessity, all who are saved-now are saved-then (judgment day), because the saved-from (God’s Wrath) can only occur at the saved-then moment. Saying “I am saved” today, can only be true if I am also saved at judgment day. Therefore, each time a person says “I am saved.” they are making a false statement if it turns out that they go to hell. That being the case, the problem is dissolved rather than resolved… of course one cannot lose their salvation…by the mere meaning of the word. This coupled with he logical necessity of determinism (providence), as endlessly presented by the scriptures, shows the Arminian to be a simple low-brow humanist.
Seriously, the only reason to bicker over it would be to try to overthrow the sovereignty of God in history and the plan of salvation. To quote Anakin: “You will try!”
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Will-I-Am,
In the link to the sermon this was taken from, I give a full Biblical definition of the word “saved.” I would argue that your definition is only part of the Biblical picture. We are certainly “saved now” but that has other Biblical promises accompanied to it that you seem to be missing.
Doug
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Linguistically I have this question: What does “saved” or “salvation” mean? It has to have content to make sense. If saved means spared the wrath of God, the sparing is a future event. If one says that salvation can be gained and lost, one is saying that the term has no meaning at all, since the future is totally contingent “saved” can only have meaning when the moment of judgment occurs. In that case, you can neither be “saved” or “unsaved” in the present. So when someone says that they are “saved”, under this strange/strained use, they are really saying “blarked”. I am “blarked”! You know you can lose your “blarkation”.
All I can say is blark that. “Saved” means saved presently from a certain future event, based on a back-then historical event.
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Can we have a halt to hostilities until terms are defined?
We need: annointed, saved, believer, Christian, and the like to be defined, otherwise we will be talking past each other.
The following is is not intended to be the final word on our definitions or clarifying terms, rather it is a starter to get the ball rolling into a clearer discussion…this topic is deep and terms often get conflated. Remember, language is fluid and its use in context is more important than what it says in Webster’s.
Just my musings on the matter.
Whatever conclusion you come to on the matter debated here on the whole, the terms “eternal salvation” or “saved”, must be an unchangeable status in the eyes of God…its not like he is sitting there wondering if you will pass the test. God knows the future, and if he knows it, it must come to pass exactly as he knows it…therefore, whoever is saved is already determined before they even come to faith. If that is not true, then God does not know the future and is in fact not God at all.
This means that we have to discuss and perhaps debate the doctrine of God before we can debate the doctrine of perseverance. Also, we have to determine whether this is a debate about how somebody is saved and what that means; or if this is a debate about how one comes to feel secure.
I think that we can all agree that there are those who, to our eyes, have borne the marks of a true Christian and yet have proved to be false. We can never know the contents of another’s heart. When we speak of the apparent and the temporal, we say “Christian”, “believer”, some say “annointed”, etc…we are not looking at things for their eschatological or eternal status, but for their temporal evidence of eternal status…since as mentioned, only God knows this. So, we have to be careful with what is in view, temporal or eternal. Don’t be fooled, the temporal is always used with a view toward its eternal consequences. This all brings us back to sharp tools and clear definitions.
As far as it goes, I’m of a mind that God wants us to be a little insecure as is befitting our place in the universe. He never tells you the future in regard to yourself. All your efforts, prayers, repentance, spiritual experiences and law keeping may only be prelude to your much deserved damnation. You can’t possibly know what you will do or choose tomorrow, which is a real motivator to serve God as your Lord, not just your Savior. True faith causes true works. On the other hand, the Bible makes it clear that we are saved apart from our works and on the basis of faith. It also says that the Lord will faithfully forgive us our sins.
The upshot is that we can’t really know if we are saved, but we can know that Christ hears our prayers, forgives us when we repent and saves us apart from our works. Given that assurance I don’t need to know the future.
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Tim…what a wonderful and creative intertwining of ad hominem and genetic fallacies.
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ONCONFORMER “The Oracle” SAID: “Sadly there is also an intellectual acceptance of the faith, even of Jesus Christ himself, but this is not the same now as accepting Jesus Christ as Lord.. believe on the lord Jesus Christ and you will be save.. I have often had business partner, friends, who supported the gospel, going to church, and yet refused to make a full personal commitment of God. when I had prayed about it to God he replied.. they have seen the kingdom from afar, but they are not going to go into.. so close and yet so far away still.”
I say…what the heck? Told straight out talked to you? You heard his literal voice and you are sure it wasn’t some demon? That better have been from God, because otherwise you are putting yourself in the place of an oracle, a witch, a seer, a diviner who hears from spirits and tells people their future.
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Tim…stop the ad hominem and please provide proof that Calvin was self-deceived, corrupt in his theology and what precisely was his unforgivable sin. I was thinking we’d already had this conversation, but seriously, anybody who thinks that the sins of an adherent to a belief make that belief true or false really needs a course in basic critical thinking or baby-logic. EXAMPLE: Does the fact that Jehovah’s Witnesses hold to a premillennial eschatology, prove that said eschatology is false?
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this scripture in matthew 7 applies clearly to the fact that religiousness and religious doing involves self deception
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well the scripture would apply to religious self deception-look at the fruit of john calvin the fruit of his doings were corrupteed by his theology – i wouldnt want to be religious it leads to self deception and error- it is clearly false doctrine -do people think thta calvin is in heaven after living the way he did ?
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This passage used to trouble me, alot, as to whether
I’m saved or not saved, I’ll just sweep it under the
carpet. When I hear this verse, I really sweat.
It is very often used by people to gain control and
in still fear in people, and to tell believers that they
are not certainly saved. And some would scare people,
unintentionally by saying, maybe you’re saved, maybe
you’re not.
Matthew 7:21 -23 [KJV]
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall
enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth
the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not
prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils?
and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you:
depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Jesus said that, only the one who does the will of His
Father in heaven will enter into the kingdom.
So what is this “will of my Father”?
I wanted to get verses to back up and not just
base it on what people interpret and say.
The word ‘will’ here is the word G2307 ‘thelēma’ which means:
1) what one wishes or has determined shall be done
a) of the purpose of God to bless mankind through Christ
b) of what God wishes to be done by us
1) commands, precepts
2) will, choice, inclination, desire, pleasure
Matthew 18:14 – Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.
Matthew 26:42 – He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done.
Luke 22:42 – Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.
John 1:12-13 – But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
John 4:34 – Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.
John 6:38 – For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
John 6:39 – And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
John 6:40 – And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Galatians 1:4-5 – Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father: To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
Ephesians 1:9-13 – Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
Hebrews 10:8-10 – Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Hebrews 10:32-39 – But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions; Partly, whilst ye were made a gazingstock both by reproaches and afflictions; and partly, whilst ye became companions of them that were so used. For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance. Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward. For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise. For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry. Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
1 John 5:14 – And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us:
John 9:31 – Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth. (See Matthew 8:2-3, Matthew 15:25-28, below)
The will of God is that we believe in Christ and have salvation.
Also, that we stand firm in the faith, in believing in Christ even through trials.
God’s will is that none should perish, and that whoever believes in Him
will have everlasting life. He who does the will of the Father, is to believe
that Jesus is the Christ.
a) of the purpose of God to bless mankind through Christ
b) of what God wishes to be done by us
And ‘thelēma’ stems from the root word G2309 ‘the’-lō’ which means:
1) to will, have in mind, intend
a) to be resolved or determined, to purpose
b) to desire, to wish
c) to love
1) to like to do a thing, be fond of doing
d) to take delight in, have pleasure
Matthew 8:2-3 – And, behold, there came a leper and worshipped him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean. And Jesus put forth his hand, and touched him, saying, I will; be thou clean. And immediately his leprosy was cleansed. (See John 9:31, above)
Matthew 15:25-28 – Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me. But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children’s bread, and to cast it to dogs. And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters’ table. Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour. (See John 9:31, above)
Matthew 9:13 – But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
Matthew 15:32 -Then Jesus called his disciples unto him, and said, I have compassion on the multitude, because they continue with me now three days, and have nothing to eat: and I will not send them away fasting, lest they faint in the way.
Mark 10:51 – And Jesus answered and said unto him, What wilt thou that I should do unto thee? The blind man said unto him, Lord, that I might receive my sight. And Jesus said unto him, Go thy way; thy faith hath made thee whole. And immediately he received his sight, and followed Jesus in the way.
John 5:6-8 – When Jesus saw him lie, and knew that he had been now a long time in that case, he saith unto him, Wilt thou be made whole? The impotent man answered him, Sir, I have no man, when the water is troubled, to put me into the pool: but while I am coming, another steppeth down before me. Jesus saith unto him, Rise, take up thy bed, and walk.
John 6:11-12 – And Jesus took the loaves; and when he had given thanks, he distributed to the disciples, and the disciples to them that were set down; and likewise of the fishes as much as they would.
John 17:24 – Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
And that whatever we ask of God, according to
His will (to bless us through Christ), he listens.
John 9:31 – Now we know that God heareth not sinners:
but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will,
him he heareth.
So what is his will? [See Matthew 8:2-3, Matthew 15:25-2]
It is just to believe in Jesus.
Ask whatever that is according to His will and believe Him.
See His heart.
He intends,
to purpose,
to desire,
to wish,
to love,
through the cross, that we be healed.
He takes delight and have pleasure that we be healed!
He wants us healed. But wilt thou be healed?
He delights in us whatever we ask of Him,
of the purpose of God to bless us through Christ.
God takes delight in blessing us not cursing.
Ask according to what He will to bless us through Christ,
and believe. He will hear.
His thoughts towards us are good.
Jeremiah 29:11 – For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the LORD, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope.
John 6:40 – And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Matthew 7:21 -23 [KJV]
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall
enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that (John 6:40).
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not
prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils?
and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you:
depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
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Hello!
Very Interesting post! Thank you for such interesting resource!
PS: Sorry for my bad english, I’v just started to learn this language 😉
See you!
Your, Raiul Baztepo
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(1 Cor 9:27 KJV) But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.
an apostle facing the reality of being a castaway…
Sadly there is also an intellectual acceptance of the faith, even of Jesus Christ himself, but this is not the same now as accepting Jesus Christ as Lord.. believe on the lord Jesus Christ and you will be save.. I have often had business partner, friends, who supported the gospel, going to church, and yet refused to make a full personal commitment of God. when I had prayed about it to God he replied.. they have seen the kingdom from afar, but they are not going to go into.. so cloase and yet so far away still.
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>> Every time a believer commits a sin he/she doesn’t lose their salvation. In fact, no one can really lose their salvation, but they can consciously forsake it. If someone has truly rejected their salvation, they will never again have the desire for a relationship with God.
and eventually even God next respects their free will choice.. hell is a choice to be seprated from God..
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“Do you believe that someone who loses their salvation can get it back?”
No. The Scripture clearly states it is impossible. Every time a believer commits a sin he/she doesn’t lose their salvation. In fact, no one can really lose their salvation, but they can consciously forsake it. If someone has truly rejected their salvation, they will never again have the desire for a relationship with God. It is much rarer an occurence than most Arminianists would have you believe. I am neither Calvinist(even if I believed the doctrine I would never be associated with the name of a bloodthirsty murderer such as Calvin) nor Arminian, and the debate between the two is a false dichotomy. I am simply a believer in the Bible. The doctrine taught in the Scriptures needs no refining or formulations by the likes of Calvin, Arminius, Luther, or anyone from Rome.
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Duane,
Hebrews 6 also says, “it is impossible…if one fall away, to renew them again to repentance.”
So if you are making this passage say someone can lose their salvation, then it must also be impossible to get it back.
Do you believe that someone who loses their salvation can get it back? If so I would like to hear how you reconcile your belief with this scripture.
God Bless,
Doug
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Duane,
(The context that you place the verses in and the bold type lettering are in a sense commentary, unless there is bold type in the original?)
“which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.”
You seem to be implying that “believe” means regenerative faith, but we know from James that even the Demons believe?
You quote Hebrews 6 and like many, leave out the clause that gives it its context, which is that Paul finds something different in the case of those he writes to than those that he writes about. He says that he finds better things in their case, specifically, “things that accompany salvation”. So the difference between the two that Paul is clarifying is not that they did not both “taste” or “partake” or were enlightened, John writing that Christ is the light that enlightens every man (John 1), it is the difference between those that have salvation, and those that do not. Those that do not, do not persevere, even though they have “tasted” and “partaken”. Which is, even with the most charitable permissiveness toward your interpretation of the language, still analogous language that doesn’t say what you seem to imply that it says. Participating in the meal doesn’t make you part of the family, and participating in the Church service, and even the blessings therein, doesn’t make you a part of the Church. Maybe one can mask their way into the visible Church, but not the spiritual one.
And your interpretation of this set of verses,
“The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire. 2 Peter 2:22” implies that Christians are dogs and sows. Peter is of course using the image to say that those among us that are not really one with us are dogs and sows, and that they will return, not that we are all dogs and sows but only some of us will return. He doesn’t say that those that are not dogs and sows become dogs and sows when they fall away from their salvation, he says that those that are dogs and sows return to the usual practices that dogs and sows are in love with doing. Washing the sow doesn’t make it anything other than a washed sow. We need a new birth to a new life.
And that is really the essence of what is being said here. That those that are not in the true sense in Christ will be found out eventually. It is their nature to turn back, even if at first, or for a time, they walked with us.
More than that, there is nothing in Baptism, or ordination, of church membership, or a verbal profession of faith, or an externally observable obedience to moral commands that is a certain proof that what is going on on the outside, is really going on on the inside.
People obviously lose their Christianity, but they cannot “lose” a true salvation by the power of the Spirit of God.
Neiswonger
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Duane,
Oh cool, so you are in agreement with me, sorry for misunderstanding your comment. Nice to know there is another biblical brother out there with sound doctrine.
In His security,
Clay
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“Not all of the passages that you site are dealt with”
Why not?
All I did was post three passages of Scripture word for word with no commentary whatsoever and you say it’s a challenge. So you’re admitting the Bible alone presents a direct challenge to your doctrine. That’s good. It’s the first step toward recovery.
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nonconformer,
My attempts to draw you into some sort of substanitve debate have fallen miserably short of my goal. Apparently, all I have accomplished is to offend you and irritate you and that certainly was not my intention. My apologies go out to you, to Doug and to the other readers here.
Clay
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HI Duane,
Thanks for the challenge. This blog site has actually dealt with this issue in a number of postings. Here are two that may help.
https://christiantheology.wordpress.com/2008/06/24/can-you-lose-your-salvation-mp3-download/
https://christiantheology.wordpress.com/2007/09/07/can-we-lose-our-salvation/
Not all of the passages that you site are dealt with, but some are. I hope this helps.
Clay
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https://christiantheology.wordpress.com/2008/06/30/depart-from-me-i-never-knew-you/
I never knew you, is not a criticism by Jesus that the healings, miracles done by the person(s) were false.. but a true statement that they really never knew Jesus fully or personally, it seems to apply to you now firstly too.
You are so sensitive to others being supposedly false, cause you clearly are false, now take the beam out of your own eye first.. Someone is wrong here and I don’t think it is that difficult (except perhaps for you) to determine who that is and that is you.. for you do twist Bible verses, slander, falsely quickly bash others to suit your own views..
Clearly Judas was an Apostle, better look at the definition of an Apostle, an Apostle is not an unchristian person.. and he was next replaced in the book of acts by another Apostle. The fact that Jesus knew that Judas would betray him does not mean he was not anointed.. but first better look at the meaning of the word anointed now.. one who evidences the Holy spirit.. with signs and wonders Acts 10:38
If you do not let the Holy spirit lead you as to what a verse actually means you are part of the Blind leading the blind now, forget trying to say the scripture cannot be wrong, rather you are wrong.. “You throw the term free will around as if it does not need to be defined. ” and yet you clearly in desperation rebuttal quoted back a verse that has nothing to do with one’s free will.
“You have contradicted now three times the Word of Jesus,” and what a further false and wrong, judgmental act on your part too, you so easily condemn a person whom you do not know, never met, another real Christian, a real christian now over 50 years too, and I have been pastoring now for over 3 decades as a Pentecostal pastor too. get a real life. Really do get Jesus.
http://postedat.wordpress.com/
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Clay,
Luke 8:13
They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.
Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
2 Peter 2:20
20For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
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LNB,
I can offer a “scriptural reply,” if I may. The idea that “Christians have departed from the Spirit of God,” is a paraphrase of Heb. 6.4-6: “…have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit…and then have fallen away”—a nice fit. A friend of mine comments: “metoxous has already been used in this discourse in relationship to the heavenly calling of Christians (3.1) and to Christians being sharers or partners with Christ. Having “shared in the Holy Spirit” is the hallmark of being a Christian as Heb. 2.4 stresses along with numerous other NT witnesses, particularly Paul (see 1 Cor. 12), and Luke (see e.g. Acts 2 and 10). So it seems that what you deny, Heb. 6.4-6 and cited texts affirm.
Your usage of Matt. 13 is a basal foible. Whence the idea therein that “there are non-Elect and Elect in the Church”? This is a poor misreading, since according to Jesus’ own exegesis, “the field” is the “world” (v. 38) and not the “church.”
The usage of 1 Jn. 2.19 is hardly “powerful.” In fact, it is almost irrelevant. The phrase “they went out from us” just means “go out,” or “go away” (exerchomai), and not “commit apostasy (parapipto). There is no question that these folk were never redeemed. Hence, no spiritual apostasy occurring here—they just “left,” that’s all. Unfortunately, John doesn’t say anything of the spiritual condition of his readers. 1 Jn. 2.19 only tells us that “they were not of us” but to infer from this “any” sort of spiritual status is a stretch beyond exegetical credulity. This is in contrast to Hebrews where the audience are “partakers of Christ (3.1), are “enlightened” (6.4; cf. 10.32, same Gk. word “photizo”), “partakers of the Holy Spirit” (6.4), etc. I don’t think it is hermeneutically correct to have one text dictate what the other should say, and conversely. We must, I think, give each text the right to speak on its own.
No one will dispute that God has the power to bring his own to “glorification” (Rom. 8.29.30). But this is not all the Bible says on the subject. In the same section (Rom. 9-11), the olive tree metaphor is a symbol of the people of God as God omnisciently and infallibly sees it. Paul gives us a dreadful exhortation that if we fall into unbelief, “you will be cut off,” (v. 22b). It seems that salvation is “also” (not “only”) maintained “provided that” (see NIV, “if” condition construction, 11.18, 21, 22, 23) “you continue in his kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off” (v. 22). Of Gentile Christians Paul warns, “for if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will He spare you” (11.21). So if Jewish branches could be cut off, then gentile branches (us presumably) “will” (v. 21, not “might”) certainly suffer the same fate. It would seem odd, I think, to view Rom. 8.29-30 as an ironclad guarantee, if Paul later gives such dreadful exhortations(?). The tension, however, vanishes when we see the verbs in v. 30 as proleptic aorists—everything is seen from the perspective of the end. The aorist usually views an event “as a whole from the outside, without regard for the internal makeup of the occurrence.”
I am one who thinks that both God’s sovereignty and ability to preserve the believer (Jn. 6.39-40; 10.27-30) and human responsibility to keep on believing (Rom. 8.13, 17; 11.17-24; “stand by your faith” [v. 20]) is affirmed at the same time, in the same breath. And I would want to resist the temptation from autonomous reason on seizing upon one to the exclusion of the other (thenonconformer and Clay seem to proceed in this way). “A genuine biblical theology, therefore, lets both of these messages stand together, proclaims both truths, and does not attempt to resolve how they fit together. Such resolutions are inadequate, for they inevitably compromise either God’s promises or his threats.”
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noncomformer,
No, the scriptures do actually mean something, that we interpret things differently should not come into play when considering what the scriptures do mean.
Case in point, you said that Judas was annointed which I believe you meant was analogous to being saved but John 6:64 says “But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him.” So we have noncomformer saying that Judas was saved and annointed and Jesus saying Judas did not believe from the beginning, this is not a matter of different interpretations but clearly a matter of you contradicting Jesus, so we are left with trying to figure out who to believe, thenonconformer or Jesus. Thats an easy choice (perhaps not for you)for most of us.
You throw the term free will around as if it does not need to be defined. It appears that you hold to an autonomous view of free will, that man is free to do good things or bad things but jesus says in Matt 12:33-37 “33 “Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or else make the tree bad and its fruit bad; for a tree is known by its fruit. 34 Brood of vipers! How can you, being evil, speak good things? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. 35 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good things, and an evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth evil things. 36 But I say to you that for every idle word men may speak, they will give account of it in the day of judgment. 37 For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.” Again you say man can do either good or bad based on his free will and Jesus here says “how can you, being evil speak good things”, Jesus is teaching that man is bound to do the things that flow from the treasure of our hearts, a good treasure good things an evil treasure evil things. Man is bound to this and does not according to Jesus have freedom over it. Much like God is bound to do the things consistant with His own nature.
You say Christians are free to walk away from their salvation, to control their own destiny based on their free will, Jesus in John 6:39-40 says “39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.” Jesus is the shepherd that keeps His sheep, it is not according to the sheeps free will as LNB already alluded to.
You have contradicted now three times the Word of Jesus, you cannot pass this off as an issue of different interpretaions, and leave it at that. Someone is wrong here and I don’t think it is that difficult (except perhaps for you) to determine who that is.
Clay
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When you talk about what the scripture say you honestly should mean how you interpret what the scripture says.. cause too many of us read different things out of the same scriptures as we all do know firstly..
Secondly man has a free will, you cannot cast demons out of a person now if you do not believe they have them, or refuse to believe they have them even as a professing Christian.. King Saul and Apostle Judas clearly were once both anointed once, but were next demon possessed. demon controlled, however you want to play ion the words, they next certainly were not holy spirit led… the foolish virgins of the new testament also originally had the anointing now too.. but ran out of it..
for in realty no matter who you are, you always have a free will, an ability to choose whom you will serve, or who will control you now Christian or not even till the day you die.. we are not puppets or involuntary slaves, but free, with a free will.
So you too do chose whether you want to be Holy sprit led, filled or not daily as well… and you can freely next choose to go to hell again too.
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thenonconformer,
Doug has shown cogently from Scripture that the Elect cannot fall away. Yet you claim that “Christians” have “departed from the Spirit of God.”
It seems that we have several powerful passages in Scripture that say things like “They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.” (1 John 2:19) and the Parable of the Weeds in Matthew Chapter 13 shows that there are non-Elect and Elect in the Church. Even Matthew Chapter 7 quoted by Doug shows that there are people doing things in the name of Jesus, who have the appearance of Christians, but Jesus does not know them.
What makes one “Christian” in the true sense, or “Elect”, is being known by God and “…those God foreknew…he also glorified” (Romans 8:29-30). There is no sense of “some of those God foreknew would fall away, but a good number would actually be glorified.”
So when you say Christians can and have departed from the Spirit of God, you either mean something other than “falling away from Salvation” or you are in direct contradiction of Romans 8, John 6 and others. You are in essence proclaiming that Jesus is unable to do the will of His Father and keep His Elect, and that He will lose some in contradiction to John 6 which says, “And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.”
I look forward to a Scriptural reply,
LNB
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In reality it is possible also to depart from the Spirt of God, even as a christian, and not return, and many have, christians and non christians!
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Menagerie,
That is a great question, and it is also a difficult question to answer in a paragraph or two in a comment line.
Rom 8:16 Says, “The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God”
There is a sense in which the Spirit testifies to us that we are his children, and as always, the Spirit, who is the Spirit of truth, uses scripture to comfort or condemn us. We must go to scripture to look at what it means to have faith in Christ, and see if we line up. Most people who will be told, “depart from me, I never knew you” are not too concerned with questions like this though. They tend to have other agendas.
For a deeper answer, I recommend the link below for a discussion on assurance from the guys at the White Horse Inn. It should help you with your question.
God Bless,
Doug
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How do you make sure that you will not “fall into the condemnation of this passage?” Are you elect? If so, can you elaborate. If not, then what kind of assurance can the Christian have?
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Thenonconformer,
The sermon was preached by a Baptist at a Baptist church. It was not a statement meant to single out any denomination or church, but instead serve as a reminder to us all to make sure we do not fall into the condemnation of this passage.
Doug
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Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
and many of those to whom Jesus will say this will even be Baptist now too..
http://postedat.wordpress.com/
http://thefocusonthefamily.wordpress.com/
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