Christian Theology

April 4, 2008

Atheism is unthinkable

Atheism is unthinkable

There are things, we can call them things because we don’t really know what else to call them, like the laws of logic, numbers, consciousness, ethics, relations, things that seem to be eternal and unchangeable, that are inexplicable in terms of eternal material as the singular explanatory fact, or mere empirical observation, as the method for determining or measuring truths. But if you have all of these facts of experience that are either inconceivable or inexplicable within the scope of a proposed worldview, as in naturalistic atheism, you would need to either deny many facets of human experience by reducing them to being the accidental relations of objects in space, and so say that most of what we find ourselves to be is an illusion of some kind, or find an understanding of the world that can be held in concert with the perceived facts and experiences of the self and the world as we actually find them to be.

This is simpler than it seems. With God, I understand who and what I am, and why the world is the way it is, and why things are the way they seem to be, including everything from physics, to sorrow over death, the love of friends and family and the longing for the afterlife. My grief over sin, the desire for salvation, and the need for reconciliation to one greater than myself, that seems to be innate, makes sense in this context but not outside of it. We need to have a worldview that can coherently reconcile that we grow through time into something either wonderful, or base, and that being either wonderful or base is not just a subjective judgment or opinion, but a real condition ascribable to persons and behaviors.

There is something better and worse that I can be, and it matters. This is a given of human experience so powerful and effectual upon my psychological status that to claim it to be simply an environmental construct, or the accident of a mindless process of unplanned mutation, seems unthinkable if I am going to take my experiences seriously, and not simply decide to accept what others have decided my experiences should be, or let them dictate to me that they really amount to nothing. The longing for understanding itself, for justice, for hope, for joy. All the human things, that some say are not, but that we say are, and are definitive of what we are.

There are many kinds of Atheism but all carry a similar sentiment. That all that we seem to be, we are not, and that what we really are, is nothing very interesting. Just a bag of chemicals. Accidental fuzz on a sphere of mud wandering an inadvertent universe with neither rhyme nor reason. Cause and effect. Atoms bouncing. A paraphrase. An epiphenomenon at best. In the end, just a trick of the light.

Now, I’m not just saying that Christianity is the better of two possible answers, and so should Pragmatically be accepted. I’m not even saying it is the lesser of two evils or the best bet yet. It does seem to be true but that’s not what I’m saying. I’m saying that given the properties and facets of human experience, Christianity, its view of existence and the teleology of man, is positively rational and comports with the real world. While Atheism is negatively unreasonable, irrational, and almost seems to edge toward absurdly contrary to common sense. It argues by the erasure of the common elements of experience to an alternative framework that has never been experienced by anyone (meaningless mechanical determinism), on the basis of things that have never been seen (the ultimate resolvability of all phenomena by reference to the relations of tiny unobservable particles, fields, strings, or whatever), by a method that is self refuting (that the scientific method is the only means to truth while that itself as a premise cannot be shown to be true through the scientific method).

In line with this way of looking at truth, I’m also yet to see any good argument against the verity of Christianity, which if it were not true, should be obvious and forthcoming. There are many things that at first sight seem to hold some compelling force, but I find that with a little study and the application of God given Logic and Reason, they fall through.

This is a way of looking at proof that many people are unfamiliar with. Most of the important things in life simply cannot be proven in any way that is reconcilable with the way we talk about it today. What is surprising to people, is that that is not a weakness. If we predecide that what is real must be observable beneath my microscope, we will certainly miss the world beyond it. I cannot prove that I exist. I cannot prove to anyone else that I think this or that, or feel this or that. I cannot prove even to myself that the experiences that I have of the external world in anyway realistically represent the actual world beyond the tip of my nose. I cannot prove that electrons exist. I cannot prove that things fall down “because” of gravity. I cannot prove that I love someone, that I don’t like eggplant, or that rainy days make me sleepy. I cannot prove that 1 + 1 = 2. And I cannot prove that the laws of logic are valid and should be followed in common intellectual discourse. Any proposed proof would be necessarily circular.

How we apprehend and measure truth in the real world is not reducible to the world that people end up with when they choose to narrow the scope so as to exclude the real world. But when they go home at night they live in the real world with the rest of us. The world where good and evil exist and people matter more than all of the accumulated content of the sciences combined. More than the stars themselves, and we would give up any one of them in all their glory for the peace and safety of even one of our small children. Because in the end, if we are true to ourselves, we can only live consistently in a Theistic universe. It’s the one we we’re made for, and the kind of thing we are doesn’t make sense in any other. The one where persons are more important by far than anything else, and are not reducible to chance and time and matter in the void, but carry within themselves a transcendent importance that speaks of something else.

The Atheist, because of some strange impulse within himself, reduces all things to the impersonal. He feels a need to make himself, judge himself, part of a dead world of impersonal forces and meaningless events. He longs for oblivion and defines himself as such. Because in creating a world that has no meaning, they self consciously and purposefully delete themselves, from consciousness and purpose.

Because we are personal beings and all of our experiences are personal, understanding the ultimate nature of impersonal things is impossible for us. We cannot experience impersonality. We do not know what it is like. We do not know what it really means. Everything we think or experience is within the context of our personhood unless we suppress the truth and make believe we are stones. They will always be, as they were made to be, for us, and not definitive of us. We cannot look at them, learn their properties, and then define ourselves in terms of them, worshipping the created instead of the Creator. They have their only significance conceived in relation to purpose and use. I’m not saying we make them what they are, God makes them what they are and what He made them to be is inherently related to what we are, as personal beings created in the Image of God, who is a personal eternal Spirit, the Logos, the Divine Wisdom. What they are is dependent upon what we are because that’s what they’re for. And so the only interpretation of the world that can possibly make the slightest bit of sense to us, is to think of it as the product of a Personal Being, because there is no other way we can think, and be what we are. Otherwise we are just pretending to be nothing so that we can avoid facing the fact that we are truly something.

Is this a “First Cause” argument? In a sense. It’s just a more primary a priori rather than an a posteriori use of the idea. Everything’s gotta come from something, or there is something itself that is as it is and that helps to explain everything else, and if there is anyway to find and measure that thing it will be through either the contents, the presuppositions, or the consequences of whatever it is that we find ourselves to be. Augustine would say the presuppositions. Aquinas would say the consequences. Anselm would say the contents. An immediate aspect of all three, seems to be, God.

Christopher Neiswonger

16 Comments »

  1. You are making the transendential argument. You also go onto attacking materialism because it doesn’t “feel right”, the scientific method and determinism.
    If you want I can tell you how you are wrong, but you can easily search it up on the net.

    I take particular exception to your knocking of determinism. It isn’t an alternative between determinism and free will as theists like to paint- it is between determinism and randomness. The determinism you are refering to is the idea that people are the sum total of everything that went into them and that if you know all the input you can give the output. This holds true even if people have souls- they are simply non-material, not deterministic. The only alternative is if the input and output aren’t related- in other words random.

    Comment by Samuel Skinner — April 5, 2008 @ 12:33 am | Reply

  2. I don’t quite get it. We start with the premise that there are perennial philosophical mysteries concerning ethics and mathematics and consciousness and the like. But we then conclude that there’s a God? How does that follow? It seems like a pretty arbitrary conclusion to arrive at.

    Comment by Regfsdjglsfdj — April 5, 2008 @ 2:23 am | Reply

  3. Dude, I enjoyed your post. You are obviously a bright young man. I actually had to look up a couple of words in the dictionary. Obviously as an Agnostic I have to take issue with a couple of ideas you so eloquently expressed:

    “The Atheist, because of some strange impulse within himself, reduces all things to the impersonal. He feels a need to make himself, judge himself, part of a dead world of impersonal forces and meaningless events. He longs for oblivion and defines himself as such. Because in creating a world that has no meaning, they self consciously and purposefully delete themselves, from consciousness and purpose.”

    It sounds like you are saying that atheists are some how emotionless and indifferent. I think that quick perusal of the numerous freethinker/atheists blogs will contradict that thinking. And whats with the “dead world” thing. That is totally out of line with the reality of typical the atheist. “He longs for oblivion”? Where I come from we call that industrial grade bull puckey! Atheist/Agnostic/ free thinkers I would think would make a point of living a full life because they don’t expect an afterlife. And while I’m at it, having a purpose in life is always going to come from within. Christianity never lived up to billing back when I was b trying to be believer.

    I could nitpick more, but overall I found your post thought provoking if somewhat over intellectualized (read: too many big words for the old fart) and a little wrong headed.

    Emoose out

    Comment by mooseman — April 5, 2008 @ 4:08 am | Reply

  4. …you would need to either deny many facets of human experience by reducing them to being the accidental relations of objects in space, and so say that most of what we find ourselves to be is an illusion of some kind, or find an understanding of the world that can be held in concert with the perceived facts and experiences of the self and the world as we actually find them to be.

    Reducing? I’d like you to take, say, the literature in the Bible, and compare that to the scientific literature on human psychology and neurophysiology and cellular biology and genetics and virology, etcetera. Which of these reduces the human experience, I wonder? Well, biology has a couple thousand libraries worth of material, and the Bible is a single book, if that’s worth anything. At the very least you must admit that science views the universe as a much more complex place than does religion.

    With God, I understand who and what I am, and why the world is the way it is, and why things are the way they seem to be, including everything from physics, to sorrow over death, the love of friends and family and the longing for the afterlife.

    Why must you have an explanation? Can’t you simply say, in humility, that you don’t know for sure? That it’s a complex topic with many nuances, subtleties, and unknown variables? Humility is a Christian virtue, is it not?

    That all that we seem to be, we are not, and that what we really are, is nothing very interesting. Just a bag of chemicals. Accidental fuzz on a sphere of mud wandering an inadvertent universe with neither rhyme nor reason. Cause and effect. Atoms bouncing. A paraphrase. An epiphenomenon at best. In the end, just a trick of the light.

    Which of these is a “trick of the light”? A universe which was poofed into existence in a mere six days in its full, current, working form, a universe whose laws can be suspended at a whim? Or a universe which interacted in an infinitely complex dance for billions of years, building up complexity over time, which maintains its regularity unceasingly?

    The only possible way you can characterize science the way you do is if you just don’t know much about it. Sorry.

    In line with this way of looking at truth, I’m also yet to see any good argument against the verity of Christianity, which if it were not true, should be obvious and forthcoming.

    I believe that there are invisible leprechauns dancing on your head. I’ve yet to hear any good argument against the veracity of these leprechauns. If they did not exist, the evidence should be obvious and forthcoming.

    The Atheist, because of some strange impulse within himself, reduces all things to the impersonal. He feels a need to make himself, judge himself, part of a dead world of impersonal forces and meaningless events. He longs for oblivion and defines himself as such. Because in creating a world that has no meaning, they self consciously and purposefully delete themselves, from consciousness and purpose.

    What an arrogant, idiotic statement. Not only do you claim to speak for atheists, you claim to know what they think and why they think it. Without, let me guess, ever having known one or been one. Good job, that.

    We cannot experience impersonality. We do not know what it is like. We do not know what it really means.

    If you cannot experience impersonality then you live in a fairytale land. Join the real world. Here, shit happens and for no reason at all. And the only way to rectify that is to try and prevent the shit from happening. Not by sitting on your ass and assuming it’s the will of God. Talk about meaninglessness. You think human suffering and human happiness are meaningless so long as humans live a godly life and can get into heaven. Homelessness? Pshaw. Just as long as you live a godly life. Disease? Pshaw. Just as long as you live a godly life. Education? Pshaw. Just as long as you live a godly life. Music? Art? Poetry? Literature? Science? Philosophy? Mathematics? Pshaw. Useless endeavors. All we really need to do is live a godly life. You want impersonal? THAT’S impersonal.

    Comment by Jon — April 5, 2008 @ 8:13 am | Reply

  5. Christopher Nieswonger said:
    “With God, I understand who and what I am, and why the world is the way it is, and why things are the way they seem to be,”.

    I am an atheist and I understand who I am, etc, etc, without any god(s). Do you allow some guy with his collar on backwards to tell you who you are and how the world works? If this kind of thinking continues and is believed by everyone, we will backslide into the dark ages.

    He also states that he can’t prove that 1 + 1 = 2. Have christians really got to the point that simple arithmetic is too much for them?

    Come on Chris, start thinking for yourself and give up on that silly book.

    Comment by Aspentroll — April 5, 2008 @ 4:25 pm | Reply

  6. “Atheism is unthinkable” displays a complete lack of knowledge of atheism. “There are many kinds of Atheism but all carry a similar sentiment” is simply nonsensical. Atheism is the single state of a lack of belief in gods. It does not imply anything further. Beyond lacking a belief in gods, atheists believe in a great variety of things. Atheism is not at all like Christianity. If one claims to be a Christian, we know immediately what they believe on a number of issues, and if they claim membership in a particular division of Christianity (Baptist, Unitarian, Catholic) we understand in even more detail what they believe. But when someone claims to be an atheist, all we can say with certainty is that they are not theists. Determining their beliefs beyond that requires finding out what that particular person does believe about a specific topic.

    I’m a former Christian myself. That helps me understand where you’re coming from. Since I have been a Christian, I can speak with experience and knowledge about Christianity. When one understands nothing about atheists, that lack of knowledge invalidates you opinions. I will commend you on your choice for a title. Indeed, for most Christians, atheism is unthinkable. That is, they cannot think about it since they lack an understanding of it. It would be best to stick to Christian apologetics. Stick to what you know. I would advise against straying into deep water when you don’t know how to swim.

    Comment by Jack Carlson — April 5, 2008 @ 10:51 pm | Reply

  7. Chris,

    I find your understanding of both atheistic naturalism and Christianity misinformed. I am a former theologian who, after careful thought, is now an atheist and I am interested in elucidating the truth. I propose a public debate between you and I on the question “Is Christianity More Viable than Atheism?”, to be published on both your blog and mine. We would have to agree on the terms of the debate, and I suggest the following format: You and I write an opening statement of less than fifteen hundred words, exchange the statements by email, and without alteration, simultaneously post both statements on our blogs. The following day, rebuttals of less than five hundred words will be again exchanged by email and simultaneously posted on our blogs.

    I hope you have the courage to confront a real, formidable atheist rather than tinker with your self-constructed straw men. Respond by commenting on my blog or sending me an email. If you have not replied in one week, I will, in addition to thinking less of you, assume that you have opted for your straw men. Veritas vos liberabit.

    Sincerely,

    Andrew Walters

    Comment by Andrew Walters — April 6, 2008 @ 6:13 am | Reply

  8. Samuel Skinner,

    There may be some use of Kantian transcendental argumentation implied, but none is explicit. I think you would need to read that into the text. For the most part it is an existential analysis rooted in preconditions and coherence. If by transcendental you mean a use of the transcendental argument in the fashion of Van Til, I don’t buy that kind of thing myself. I’m afraid I play my part more closely to boring old Augustine and Aquinas on these things, as was stated in the last paragraph that you might not have read. As for whether or not the scientific method “feels right” or not, I don’t think that my feelings about it are particularly relevant. We deal in arguments, not feelings. As to determinism, freewill, and randomness those issues might be very important, and internally related to the things that I write about here, but they are not really what I am writing about, as these things would be true regardless of metaphysical conditions. A claim of determinism, for example, should be a consequence of doing theology or philosophy, not a presupposition of it.

    All the best,

    Neiswonger

    Comment by Neiswonger — April 6, 2008 @ 7:51 am | Reply

  9. Regfsdjglsfdj,

    I understand your concern here, but the claim that I made was more direct than that. It is not the mystery, philosophical or otherwise, that is the point of concern but the facticity of their existence, whatever kind of existence that might be, and their use. The arguments are not set to bring into question certain areas of ignorance and then make claims of knowledge based upon a claim of ignorance, but to make a claim that we do have some knowledge in each of these areas and that some interpretations of our existence in general are internally inconsistent with the things that we do seem to know about these things.

    As is implied by your comment, we do not know everything about consciousness, but, we do know that we are conscious, and we are compelled by the apprehension of that consciousness and the contents of it to make some assumptions about everything else. For example, what kind of a thing has consciousness, and, what kind of a universe ends up having conscious things like us in it, and, does it make sense to presume without adequate evidence that a dead unconscious universe is primary and consciousness is an accidental and relatively inconsequential effect of the motion of lifeless matter, when we have not, and cannot ever, experience such a thing within our consciousness?

    It seems more obvious to presume that consciousness is primary, and by default it must be, because whatever we say about the universe will be a product of consciousness anyway, and that whatever else might exist should be interpreted in the light of the things that we do actually know and that cannot be other than they are.

    The popular myth is that matter is primary and that personality is an accidental effect of brute forces in the void.

    The Christian worldview has always been that Personality is primary and that matter is merely an instrumental means to achieving personal ends.

    So while you might not agree, it doesn’t seem to be arbitrary to think so.

    All the best,

    Neiswonger

    Comment by Neiswonger — April 6, 2008 @ 8:25 am | Reply

  10. Thumbs up. I was a bit reminded of the Bahnsen vs. Stein debate. Great Debate (Pun intended).

    Comment by Josh — April 7, 2008 @ 3:43 am | Reply

  11. …does it make sense to presume without adequate evidence that a dead unconscious universe is primary and consciousness is an accidental and relatively inconsequential effect of the motion of lifeless matter, when we have not, and cannot ever, experience such a thing within our consciousness?

    This is what bugs me about philosophers. They think they know more about science than scientists.

    A) Biologists don’t “presume” that organisms evolve. They have libraries full of evidence which shows it.
    B) A random process and an unguided process are not the same kind of process. Evolution via natural selection is unguided, but non-random. A mutation in the genome is random. But the environmental selection of mutations is NOT random. That’s why we say that organisms adapt to their environment.
    C) It’s not science’s job to decide what is inconsequential. Science describes the world; it doesn’t offer moral prescriptions. Clearly our consciousness is NOT inconsequential and meaningless, because we, being conscious creatures, would rather have it than not. And that statement has nothing whatsoever to do with science.

    It seems more obvious to presume that consciousness is primary, and by default it must be, because whatever we say about the universe will be a product of consciousness anyway, and that whatever else might exist should be interpreted in the light of the things that we do actually know and that cannot be other than they are.

    I wholeheartedly agree. It does seem more obvious to presume that consciousness is primary. Unfortunately, what seems obvious is usually wrong. When a conjurer makes your wristwatch vanish, the obvious presumption to make is that he’s actually made it physically disappear. That’s the presumption a child makes, and is why children are so fascinated by magic tricks. The less obvious presumption to make is that the conjurer has fooled you, that he’s made you think he made the watch disappear. Where does that less obvious presumption come from? It comes from experience. It comes from repeatedly watching magic tricks and learning that they’re just tricks. In other words, a very science-like testing process.

    The less obvious presumption to make about the universe is that we, being conscious creatures, have a natural affinity towards other conscious creatures, and as such will tend to ascribe human-like behaviors to non-human objects, real or imagined. Study ancient human civilizations, and guess what? That’s exactly what you find. You find humans ascribing “spirit” to rocks and trees and animals and the weather and everything else under the sun (and even including the sun). So which is a better hypothesis? Seems obvious to me. The hypothesis you’re describing is a magic trick. The conjurer has stolen your watch, and you think it’s actually disappeared. Luckily the magician isn’t a thief, though, and he’s kindly slipped the watch into your back pocket without you noticing. Check back there sometime.

    Comment by Jon — April 9, 2008 @ 5:10 am | Reply

  12. Mooseman,

    I would not say that atheists are emotionless and indifferent. If anything, the many that I’ve known and have interacted with on an ongoing basis are very emotional people of great concern and motivation. Indifference doesn’t come to mind. Still, there is great difference between being emotional and motivated and holding to an understanding of the self and the world that can be meaningfully reconciled with being emotional and motivated. From the tone of your comment, I think you understand why the Christian sees a person’s being emotional and motivated to preach their own meaninglessness and irrelevance as being more than a little confusing. There are few things more nonsensical to the Christian mind than a passionate Atheism.

    Some Atheists, for example, are strongly motivated against injustice. Explaining why, in a way that is persuasive and normative, seems impossible. The usual answer is something like, since Atheism is not a system, the Atheists choice of an ethic is unrelated to their Atheism, and so they can choose any system of morality they like. But really, there are only so many systems and any that deny some kind of a universal normative basis for ethics will eventually reduce to either genocism, egoism, or nihilism. We are either protecting our gene pool, motivated by self-interest alone, or we don’t know why and who cares?

    But this is just to say that we like doing ethics more than not doing ethics, and so is ultimately a simple personal relativism in moral thought. There is still nothing right or wrong; only what we feel about it. Empathy is sometimes promoted as an ethical savior but without any reasonable basis for the normativity of empathy it turns out a weak replacement for things actually being wrong.

    On oblivion, once someone takes that tragic step into interpreting themselves as a meaningless thing, merely accidental, and soon to return to the dust from which they came, they have chosen oblivion, if perhaps one postponed. Really, we embrace it, though we might think it a few moments or years away, because once we have reduced ourselves to nothingness or clockwork or mere chemical reactions in our judgments of ourselves, we begin oblivion now, even in the midst of a supposed life.

    All the best,

    Christopher Neiswonger

    Comment by Neiswonger — April 10, 2008 @ 3:28 am | Reply

  13. So basically, Neiswonger, you’re criticizing atheists for not having ulterior motives. They try and do good things even though they know they’ll get no heavenly reward. And to you, that’s a bad thing.

    Logic.. You’re doing it wrong.

    Comment by Jon — April 11, 2008 @ 1:06 am | Reply

  14. The Universe we live in has two sides to it? One to provide a spiritual existence
    with the knowledge of a new creation just for those who believe in a perfect future, living in God’s presence.
    Christianity presents a universe in which life and consciousness is eternal, and the Source of all knowledge dwells with glorified human beings for all eternity.
    While Atheists and Humanist offers only death, the end of consciousness, and the end of knowledge. The hope of atheism and humanism is ultimately bankrupt. Without God, the universe has no purpose, other than to just be, and its ultimate destiny is to become increasingly more hostile to life until life, consciousness, and knowledge are eternally destroyed when the universe suffers permanent heat death. This to me is what is happening now revelations. godisloveloveisgod.com

    Comment by Mark — April 23, 2008 @ 10:10 pm | Reply

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